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Posted by Hakan on 14-03-2003 15:57:

1.1

Wyszlo wlasnie nieoficjalne cpma 1.1 arqon wprowadzil troche zmian. Co o nich sadzicie. Lepiej bylo z pmove 1? czy teraz? I co powiecie o promode 2 (arqmode).

Co do pmove to owszem trudniej sie skacze ale niewiele, jednak powstal problem z com_maxfps - jak teraz ustwic optymalna wielkosc?
A co do promode 2 to osobiscie jestem przeciw (moze nie samym ustawieniom) ale wlasnie tej "2" to wprowadza nowe zamieszanie, opcje, podzialy (czy jak to nazwac). Wystarczy juz cpm1a i 1b oraz rail 1000 i 1500 ms

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Posted by SweepeR on 14-03-2003 17:05:

com_maxfps - dalej na 125

A co do server_promode 2 to nikt nikogo nie zmusza do uzywania tego, ani tez raczej nikt tego na powaznie nie bedzie uzywal. Jak arq juz pisal - jest to jego tryb, stworzony tylko po to, zeby mogl sie nim pobawic troche I nie ma na celu zadnych podzialow or smthg. Tylko taka ciekawostka jakby.

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Posted by Q on 14-03-2003 19:38:

ja sadze ze arqn jest na granicy przegiecia paly i zdupcenia cpma... moge sie zalozyc ze jak kolo nie przystopuje to potwierdzi sie przyslowie " co za duzo to niezdrowo"... przekombinuje i bedzie klops

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Posted by [FPP]Lipas on 14-03-2003 23:38:

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez Q
ja sadze ze arqn jest na granicy przegiecia paly i zdupcenia cpma... [...]

no to sie wypowiedziales - nie zapominaj, kto to wszystko wymyslil

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Posted by ShreQ on 15-03-2003 06:24:

Nie chce nowego CPMA, ludzie co ja zdzia�am bez pmove 1.
Arqon chce mnie chyba zmusi� do kupienia sobie nowego kompa

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Posted by SweepeR on 15-03-2003 08:14:

Geez, ale ty nie rozumiesz o co w tym chodzi. Teraz ci juz pmove nie jest potrzebny!!! Nie wazne czy masz 125fps czy 50fps... Skakal bedziesz tak samo...

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Posted by [FPP]Lipas on 15-03-2003 10:23:

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez [FPP]SweepeR
Geez, ale ty nie rozumiesz o co w tym chodzi. Teraz ci juz pmove nie jest potrzebny!!! Nie wazne czy masz 125fps czy 50fps... Skakal bedziesz tak samo...

i o to chodzi - nie zaleznie, jaki masz sprzet, bo i tak gral bedziesz tak samo

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Posted by MAr-n on 15-03-2003 11:08:

blee nie podoba mi sie likwidacja pmove 1 to jest teraz do dupy

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Posted by Spider on 15-03-2003 13:54:

Sila autosugestii nie spi

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araneus
spider

Posted by [FPP]Lipas on 15-03-2003 17:04:

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez Spider
Sila autosugestii nie spi

Moze i tak, ale rowne szanse dla wszystkich, to jest to, o co teraz nam chodzi :o

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Posted by killertowa on 15-03-2003 17:22:

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez [FPP]SweepeR
A co do server_promode 2 to nikt nikogo nie zmusza do uzywania tego, ani tez raczej nikt tego na powaznie nie bedzie uzywal. Jak arq juz pisal - jest to jego tryb, stworzony tylko po to, zeby mogl sie nim pobawic troche I nie ma na celu zadnych podzialow or smthg. Tylko taka ciekawostka jakby.

Odnosz� wra�enie, �e arg chce przetestowa� par� pomys��w do CPMA pod hmm... q4???

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Posted by SweepeR on 15-03-2003 17:51:

arqon si teh best

Wow, pogralem sobie przed chwila tak dluzej troche w to 1.1... OMG, zajebiste to jest!!! Od dawien dawna tak plynnie mi sie nie gralo. A skacze sie tez nawet jakos lepiej.

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Posted by [FPP]Lipas on 15-03-2003 18:15:

apropos tej plynnosci, to powiedzcie mi, na jakich detonatorach gracie ??

bardzo mnie to interesuje !!

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Posted by Hakan on 15-03-2003 19:09:

GF2 MX 400/ Detonatory 4.13.01.4109 (o ile to ten numer) bo nie wiem skad wziasc nr Detonatora taki jak sie powszechnie uzywa

Posted by SakiS on 15-03-2003 19:20:

promode 2 ??

nowy promod do kiszka

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Posted by Lucas on 15-03-2003 19:44:

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez Lipas
apropos tej plynnosci, to powiedzcie mi, na jakich detonatorach gracie ??

bardzo mnie to interesuje !!

23.11

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Posted by [FPP]Lipas on 15-03-2003 20:17:

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez Lucas
23.11

no coz, jak to ktos kiedys powiedzial - 'stare, ale jare'

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Posted by Lucas on 15-03-2003 20:53:

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez Lipas
no coz, jak to ktos kiedys powiedzial - 'stare, ale jare'

Na gf 3 sa idealne....

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Posted by ShreQ on 15-03-2003 20:55:

Re: promode 2 ??

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez SakiS
nowy promod do kiszka

Dlaczego tak s�dzisz:p ??

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Posted by Q on 16-03-2003 16:07:

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez Lipas
no to sie wypowiedziales - nie zapominaj, kto to wszystko wymyslil

niewazne kto wymyslil, wazne ze koles doklada ile wle�e, nikt go nie prosilo o jakies arQn mode, nikt nie ptrosil o vertex 2 i o brak pmova, wszystkim odpowiadalo to co bylo.... a teraz jeszcze nastopi rozlam w cpma na zwolennikow arqn mode i pure cpma

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Posted by MAr-n on 16-03-2003 17:12:

Q ma racje nie podoba mi sie brak pmove i to bardzo gra sie zrobila dla mnie wolniejsza nie wiem jak ale jakos sie odbijam po scianach. Eee co to jest vertex 2 bo jak sobie ustawilem to nic sie nie zmienilo i jakie wlasciwosci ma arqmod co on konktetnie zmienia. Wiem leniwy jestem i czytac nie umiem

Posted by Hakan on 16-03-2003 17:20:

code:

Challenge ProMode Arena: arQmode
--------------------------------
Date: 18 Feb 03


arQmode is an unofficial version of Challenge ProMode that incorporates some
of the changes we've discussed over the years but opted NOT to include in
ProMode itself for one reason or another. It's really just a place for me to
experiment with gameplay, and unlike ProMode the settings for arQmode can
(and most likely will) change on a whim without any Design review.
I'll refer to it as APM from now on to save typing.  

The strategic elements of modern ProMode (armour specifics, weaponspawns,
MH behaviour, sound system, etc) are so close to perfect after the last few
years of CPMA refinements that changes in that area would provide at best
miniscule improvement in return for gratuitous differencing from CPM, so
APM (like CQ3) generally leaves them untouched. Instead it focuses on melee,
and especially on the behaviour of the "top tier" weapons.


The APM changes are:

Biased RL Damage
Motivation: Reward use of high-skill weaponry.
Splash damage from the RL now follows a Q1/Q2-like scheme (though nothing
like as ubernoobed) where ANY hit does a minimum of 20 damage, and the
damage/distance relationship is biased accordingly, i.e. a shot that does
50 damage in CPM will do 60 damage in APM. Note that although the base
knockback factor remains the same as in CPM, knockback on splash hits
will also be higher since the base factor is scaled by damage. RL speed,
base damage, splash radius, and max splash damage remain unchanged.

Decreased Splash Vertical Knockback
Motivation: Ameliorate the higher RL knockback.
CPM's vertical knockback base is 150% of CQ3's. APM's is 133% of CQ3's,
or 89% of CPM's. Since an "average" RL hit in APM is 20% stronger than
in CPM, players were thrown around too much. While this change reduces
the "lift" from a perfect RL shot by a small amount, when coupled with
the previous change it increases lift on an overall basis for the vast
majority of shots, and you can still juggle people very nicely.  

Increased PG Damage and Knockback, Reduced Speed
Motivation: Reward use of high-skill weaponry.
The PG's *direct hit* damage has been raised from 15 to 20. The PG speed,
splash radius, and splash damage remain unchanged. Nonetheless, this
change promotes the PG to "top tier" / "power trio" weapon status.
Knockback has been increased implicity along with damage, but only
slightly: it's now roughly that of the CPM LG.
The projectile's speed has been reduced from 2000 to 1800.
This keeps the weapon extremely dangerous at close range (where it's still
effectively a hitscan weapon) but reduces its utility as a mid-range spam
weapon since good players will be able to dodge it to some extent as was
possible in Doom; and greatly reduces its value for "pure spam" cases on
CTF and other large maps. Speaking of which...
The one significant issue with a strong PG lies not so much with the
weapon itself but with the behaviour of a certain class of player: the
tendency for newbies to simply spam it until they run out of ammo. While
not really a problem in skill games, it becomes a very obvious one in CA
and CTFS, as those gametypes not only have 99% of the newbie population
but also provide the weapon and ammo for free. Fortunately, such people
are far more likely to play RA3 or Threewave than CPMA.  
Regardless, the ammo limit for the PG has been reduced to 100, which is
more than enough for DM or even TDM play.
The size of the plasma graphic has been reduced too, since I REALLY HATE
the way Q3 does them; and the shots themselves are in reality infinitely
small, contrary to their appearance (especially in VQ3).

Decreased LG Damage and Knockback
Motivation: Penalise use of low-skill weaponry.
The LG is 90% ping and 10% ability. Terrifying in the hands of even the
most newbie SLPB yet near-useless to HPBs regardless of their skill, it
has no place as a top tier weapon. The interestingly impact of damage
changes to the LG is how that damage is distributed across health and
armour. In CPM, the LG damage is always split 2H 6A whether the enemy has
RA or YA: despite the lower protection percentage of YA, the rounding
applied to the factors involved makes both armours equivalent. Dropping
the damage to either 6 or 7 makes the armours distinct again, but the
health loss is the same whether the LG is 6 or 7: damage is applied as
1H xA against RA and 2H xA against YA for both.
I flipped a coin and chose 6.
To look at that another way: against a YA player, all 3 "total damage"
factors reduce health at the same rate: the only difference is how fast
they go through armour. Against an RA player though, either reduction in
LG damage makes it virtually worthless for actually killing people until
such time as the enemy's armour has been eroded. As such, the LG's role
is now very much restricted to that of a finishing weapon and a way to
"test" the enemy's health and then combo from.
Knockback has been reduced implicity along with damage, but increased
explicitly to compensate somewhat. CPM's LG has a knockback of 10 (units
per hit) and I originally set APM's to 8, which is JUST enough to hold
someone in the air, but it requires exceptional aim to do so. In the end
I upped it to 9 simply because it's just so much more fun at that when
people take jumppads.  
9 Mar 03: The only thing I DON'T like about 6 is that it means LG now
has the same hit tone with Quad as without, which is a bit of a shame.
So I got sneaky and increased it to 6.5 instead. Since you can't do
fractional damage, that means it stays at 6 normally, but with Quad it
jumps from 24 to 26.

Decreased Rail Damage and Knockback
Motivation: Penalise passive play.
Now half of its CPM value, enabling fast players to break through "standy
railer" defenses. It's extremely tempting to leave the knockback factor
at 1 but change the actual damage of the RG instead. Reducing it to 75
for example removes the ability to use it for skill-less spawnrapes but
leaves it strong enough to be used for "balance of power" shifts or to
finish an opponent with. It would however diminish the overall power of
the RG to a level that removes it from the top tier, thus leaving no
hitscan weapon in that class, which I think would be a mistake. The only
way to compensate for that would be to reduce the reload penalty or
reinstate cessrail: of the two, a consistent but faster reload is
probably still the more desirable option, but with the LG also modified
the classic cessrail combo is really a non-issue for APM already.
9 Mar 03: Okay, tempting enough that I'm going to try it.  
Damage is reduced to 75; overall knockback stays at half of CPM/VQ3.
I found it impossible to decide between a constant faster reload and
just re-enabling cessrail by default: there are pros and cons to both.
In the end I went with this: if you enable fastrail, you get the standard
FR timings of 1000 and 1500; whereas if you leave it disabled (default)
then the reload is dropped to 1250.
APM was already strongly RL-dominated, and I think that's even more the
case after this change. The RG still clearly has an effective role even in
DM though: it remains the weapon of choice for a couple of key situations,
so I'm willing to run with this for a while and see how it plays out.

Assorted BFG Tweakage
Motivation: Avoid Superweapons.
When I originally set the BFG to be a "120% RL", the plan was that we use
that as a starting point and then refine it from there. That never happened
in CPM, and the weapon remains +20% over the RL in all these aspects:
speed; damage; splash damage; splash radius; and implicitly, knockback.
(The knockback scale is the same as the RL's, but since the damage is +20%
the knockback automatically is also). APM shrinks the blast radius down to
match the RL. Interestingly, because of the new bias on the APM RL the two
weapons now cause roughly the same damage for "average" shots, but the BFG
causes more on "good" shots and less on "bad" shots.

Biased Spawns
Motivation: Minimise streaks of "cheap luck".
The only strategic change, and one that I'm still somewhat unsure of.
Biased player respawns mean that a player CAN respawn at any spawnpoint,
but is more likely to respawn some distance from where he died. While
clearly still superior to baseq3's utterly predictable respawns, and
significantly less likely (note: NOT impossible) to result in unpleasant
"get spawnfragged in the same place 3 times in a row" than the "true
random" scheme that CPM uses, there are still elements to it that I'm
not really comfortable with. My personal opinion is that that there IS no
"best" way to handle respawns, because of the variance in map layouts etc
and in the events that lead up to the frag in the first place. Still, to
paraphrase the ELM docs: "All respawn schemes suck. This one just sucks
less than the others".

PS. sorry za bardzo dlugiego posta

Posted by MAr-n on 16-03-2003 18:27:

wow HkN jak bym cie nie znal to bym pomysla� ze jestes jakis glupi , na chu.j mi to po angielsku ja prosze po polsku w kilku latwych slowach

Posted by Hakan on 16-03-2003 18:50:

ale tu wszystko pisze a przy okazji podszkolisz swoj angielski

Posted by MAr-n on 16-03-2003 18:54:

wiesz nie mam czasu na *******enie sie z jezykiem angielskim bo mam za duzo nauki na glowie a do tego jestem przeziebiony i jak bym usiadl do tego textu to by mi glowe rozwalilo wiec nie szpanuj imi to przetlumacz

Posted by Q on 16-03-2003 19:51:

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez MAr-n
Q ma racje nie podoba mi sie brak pmove i to bardzo gra sie zrobila dla mnie wolniejsza nie wiem jak ale jakos sie odbijam po scianach. Eee co to jest vertex 2 bo jak sobie ustawilem to nic sie nie zmienilo i jakie wlasciwosci ma arqmod co on konktetnie zmienia. Wiem leniwy jestem i czytac nie umiem

wreszcie ktos mi racjie przyznal

; przeciez wiadomo ze przekombinowane jest niedobre- w tej chwili zaden odpowiedni przyklad nie przychodzi mi do lba ale tak zwsze jest; a niedlugo cpma bedzie przekombinowane na 10 strone z tysiacami jakichs komend ktore maja po 1000 wartosci i wogole juz trudno sie bedzie dogadac czy gramy na promod 1,2,3,4, czy na rajlach takich czy siekaich, itp itd zalezy co jeszcze arqn wymysli; tzreba sobie powiedziec STOP CPMA

niech juz bedzie jakie jest z cal� swoj� ulomno�ci� i niedoskonalo�cia (ktorej i tak nikt niedostrzega)
tak mowie ja Qnewka

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3091589

Posted by ShreQ on 16-03-2003 22:29:

Rozumiem, �e w starym CPMA by�y b��dy(ja ich nie dostrzegam) i wypu�cili nowego. Ja mog� przebole� nowe wersje moda ale bez takich drastycznych zmian. Nie chce wdawa� si� w szetsz� dyskusj� bo w nowego CPMA gra�em nieca�e 5minut

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Posted by SweepeR on 17-03-2003 14:39:

quote:
Napisane oryginalnie przez Q
a teraz jeszcze nastopi rozlam w cpma na zwolennikow arqn mode i pure cpma

ALE CZY WY NIE ROZUMIECIE ZE NIE BEDZIE ZADNEGO ROZLAMU!!! NIKT NIE BEDZIE NAWET NA POWAZNIE GRAL W ARQMODE!!! TO JEST WPROWADZONE TYLKO TAK SOBIE, DLA ZABAWY I NIKOMU W ZADEN SPOSOB NIE WCHODZI W DROGE!!! JAKOS DORZUCENIE DO CPMA FREEZETAGA ANI CA NIE SPOWODOWALO ROZLAMOW W SCENIE...

Sorry, ze tak glosno to powiedzialem, ale juz mnie to wkurza jak musze po kilkanascie razy to samo mowic...

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Posted by ShreQ on 17-03-2003 16:00:

Wiecie co ??
Musz� w tego nowego CPMA troch� pogra� i mo�e zmieni� zdanie na jego temat. Dochodz� mnie ju� s�uchy, ze ta nowa wersja jest jeszcze lepsza od starszej. Sweep nie lubi� wkurza� ludzi z tego wzgl�du BIG SORRY

ps. sprawdz� tego CPMA , mo�e mi si� spodoba

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Posted by Hakan on 17-03-2003 16:56:

Mnie tam zmniany w nowym cpma nie przeszkadzaja do braku pmove sie przyzwyczailem te skoki ktore mi sa potrzebne robie z pmove i bez (ale jak sobie wlaczylem jeszcze na chwile cpma 1.0 to nawet udalo mi sie na cpm3 ze schodow do RL wskoczyc z miejsca ) tak wiec mozna powiedziec ze pmove 0 wplywa na "potencje" skokow

A arqmode obawialem sie tylko ze wzglendu na "rozlam" ale skoro Sweep mowi ze go nie bedzie to ja bym jeszcze troche w nim zmienil wywalil BFG, przyspieszyl rakiete, zwiekszyl splashdemage (a'la QW ) zastanowl sie nad likwidacja RG i wogole zrobil QW z engine Q3

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